1 00:00:09,110 --> 00:00:05,950 [Music] 2 00:00:17,150 --> 00:00:09,120 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 3 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:23,540 [Music] 4 00:00:30,740 --> 00:00:26,340 yes it's the skeptic zone podcast 5 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:30,750 episode number 545 for the 31st of March 6 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:34,690 2019 Richard Saunders here with you from 7 00:00:39,810 --> 00:00:37,809 the San Francisco Bay Area and what a 8 00:00:42,030 --> 00:00:39,820 pleasure it is to be here in the Bay 9 00:00:44,549 --> 00:00:42,040 Area because I've been meeting up with 10 00:00:45,090 --> 00:00:44,559 the local skeptics in fact later on in 11 00:00:48,299 --> 00:00:45,100 the show 12 00:00:50,100 --> 00:00:48,309 a report from Millbrae skeptics in the 13 00:00:52,860 --> 00:00:50,110 pub now I know you're used to hearing 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:52,870 Maynard or Trish Han our reporters at 15 00:00:57,270 --> 00:00:54,730 sydney's skeptics in the pub well this 16 00:00:59,880 --> 00:00:57,280 week I went to Millbrae skeptics in the 17 00:01:01,950 --> 00:00:59,890 pub Millbrae south of San Francisco and 18 00:01:06,450 --> 00:01:01,960 I met up with some of the locals there 19 00:01:10,469 --> 00:01:06,460 had a nice pint of Guinness and asked 20 00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:10,479 the big question the big question should 21 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:13,630 you argue with somebody who is wrong on 22 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:15,970 the internet and a big shout out in a 23 00:01:22,499 --> 00:01:18,810 big thank you to my friend Greg Dory who 24 00:01:24,630 --> 00:01:22,509 kindly invited me to Millbrae skeptics 25 00:01:27,059 --> 00:01:24,640 in the pub and he even took me back to 26 00:01:30,690 --> 00:01:27,069 where I'm staying afterwards in his 27 00:01:32,639 --> 00:01:30,700 wonderful electric car now I swear this 28 00:01:34,770 --> 00:01:32,649 car must be from the future because it 29 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:34,780 seems to have a drone that flies above 30 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:37,450 it and when you press a button you can 31 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:39,130 see an aerial shot of your car or 32 00:01:44,219 --> 00:01:41,770 something like that those I don't know 33 00:01:46,199 --> 00:01:44,229 it's two signs he for me anyway what a 34 00:01:48,210 --> 00:01:46,209 great what a great night I had at 35 00:01:50,639 --> 00:01:48,220 Millbrae skeptics in the pub coming up 36 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:50,649 later on in the show also here in the 37 00:01:56,059 --> 00:01:53,050 area I was lucky enough to attend a talk 38 00:02:00,570 --> 00:01:56,069 by dr. eugenie Scott what would Darwin 39 00:02:02,249 --> 00:02:00,580 think of today's creationists and before 40 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:02,259 the talk Jeanne and I spent some time 41 00:02:07,169 --> 00:02:05,590 chatting about this very issue that's 42 00:02:10,290 --> 00:02:07,179 coming up right at the top of the show 43 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:10,300 after that a report about measles 44 00:02:16,619 --> 00:02:13,450 outbreaks around the world a very 45 00:02:19,710 --> 00:02:16,629 concerning story not only here in the 46 00:02:22,530 --> 00:02:19,720 Bay Area but also in New York and well 47 00:02:25,229 --> 00:02:22,540 in quite a few pockets around the world 48 00:02:29,010 --> 00:02:25,239 measles is rearing its ugly head 49 00:02:31,860 --> 00:02:29,020 I wonder why and then to round off the 50 00:02:33,170 --> 00:02:31,870 show later on we have another report 51 00:02:34,580 --> 00:02:33,180 from the skeptic magazine 52 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:34,590 the Journal from Australian skeptics 53 00:02:40,610 --> 00:02:37,170 this one oh we go back quite a few years 54 00:02:46,069 --> 00:02:40,620 well over 30 years to look at an article 55 00:02:49,099 --> 00:02:46,079 about psychic detectives so-called 56 00:02:52,309 --> 00:02:49,109 stayed tuned at the end of the show for 57 00:02:55,069 --> 00:02:52,319 more messages from me but now it's time 58 00:02:58,220 --> 00:02:55,079 for me to run upstairs make myself a 59 00:03:01,090 --> 00:02:58,230 nice root beer float while I'm doing 60 00:03:08,650 --> 00:03:01,100 that I hope you enjoy the skeptic zone 61 00:03:21,210 --> 00:03:08,660 [Music] 62 00:03:29,259 --> 00:03:25,680 on Saturday the 24th of May 2019 I 63 00:03:31,870 --> 00:03:29,269 accompany dr. eugenie Scott and we drove 64 00:03:33,729 --> 00:03:31,880 down to Palo Alto which is south of San 65 00:03:36,970 --> 00:03:33,739 Francisco to a meet-up 66 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:36,980 organized by the Atheist Abbey a local 67 00:03:42,820 --> 00:03:41,090 group our host was Jan Altman and dr. 68 00:03:45,930 --> 00:03:42,830 eugenie Scott was there to talk about 69 00:03:53,229 --> 00:03:45,940 what would Darwin say to today's 70 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:53,239 creationists of course dr. eugenie Scott 71 00:03:57,670 --> 00:03:54,890 needs no introduction to listeners of 72 00:03:59,620 --> 00:03:57,680 the skeptic zone however she is a former 73 00:04:02,410 --> 00:03:59,630 executive director of the National 74 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:02,420 Center for Science education also an 75 00:04:06,550 --> 00:04:04,250 internationally known expert on 76 00:04:10,059 --> 00:04:06,560 controversy between the creationism and 77 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:10,069 evolution and an acclaimed scientist in 78 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:13,489 her own right she is often called upon 79 00:04:17,349 --> 00:04:15,769 by the press and other media to explain 80 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:17,359 science to the general public 81 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:21,289 and incidentally she's a great beekeeper 82 00:04:25,430 --> 00:04:24,530 I caught up with dr. eugenie Scott just 83 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:25,440 before her talk 84 00:04:37,260 --> 00:04:35,090 [Music] 85 00:04:40,590 --> 00:04:37,270 you're supposed to say it's a sculpture 86 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:40,600 we're here in Palo Alto at the the 87 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:43,630 library I'm with dr. eugenie Scott and 88 00:04:48,420 --> 00:04:45,310 we're just wandering around the garden 89 00:04:50,490 --> 00:04:48,430 now because we're here too 90 00:04:54,060 --> 00:04:50,500 you're giving a talk today I am giving a 91 00:04:57,390 --> 00:04:54,070 talk yes and it's about what Darwin 92 00:05:00,870 --> 00:04:57,400 would say now something to this it's a 93 00:05:03,870 --> 00:05:00,880 talk that I have given many times for 94 00:05:06,870 --> 00:05:03,880 Darwin Day celebrations I guess actually 95 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:06,880 the first time I gave it was in 2009 in 96 00:05:12,390 --> 00:05:09,850 Chicago at a conference about Darwin but 97 00:05:14,219 --> 00:05:12,400 I thought it would be fun to think about 98 00:05:16,710 --> 00:05:14,229 what would Darwin say to today's 99 00:05:21,029 --> 00:05:16,720 creationists as of course Darwin had 100 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:21,039 creationists in the 1830 they were very 101 00:05:25,110 --> 00:05:23,020 different from our creationists but some 102 00:05:27,420 --> 00:05:25,120 of the stuff has remained the same so I 103 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:27,430 I don't know how many times I've given 104 00:05:33,450 --> 00:05:30,010 this talk but it's always a little bit 105 00:05:34,980 --> 00:05:33,460 different because number one I always 106 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:34,990 like to do something a little different 107 00:05:39,620 --> 00:05:36,849 but also because there's so many 108 00:05:42,990 --> 00:05:39,630 different things you can talk about 109 00:05:44,670 --> 00:05:43,000 certainly the demonization of Darwin was 110 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:44,680 something that went on during his time 111 00:05:51,270 --> 00:05:47,050 and I could stop driving I could do a 112 00:05:52,860 --> 00:05:51,280 whole hour or more on that alone but 113 00:05:55,890 --> 00:05:52,870 there's also fun things to talk about 114 00:05:58,350 --> 00:05:55,900 like Darwin's deathbed confession which 115 00:06:00,480 --> 00:05:58,360 is a lot of fun and I usually always 116 00:06:02,189 --> 00:06:00,490 talk about that just because if you've 117 00:06:04,050 --> 00:06:02,199 heard about it it's fun to know the 118 00:06:05,670 --> 00:06:04,060 story behind it okay if you haven't 119 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:05,680 heard about it it's kind of interesting 120 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:10,570 that this urban legend became so 121 00:06:15,750 --> 00:06:12,970 widespread this is a common theme I mean 122 00:06:19,379 --> 00:06:15,760 I've heard Carl Sagan had a deathbed 123 00:06:21,510 --> 00:06:19,389 confession in any prominent skeptic or 124 00:06:23,010 --> 00:06:21,520 atheist or or whatever it is someone 125 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:23,020 will say oh yes but he had a deathbed 126 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:26,130 confession yeah that seems to be a very 127 00:06:32,670 --> 00:06:29,289 rewarding idea for people they do when 128 00:06:34,439 --> 00:06:32,680 when somebody is has views that are very 129 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:34,449 opposed to views that you hold very 130 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:36,610 strongly I'm sure it's very comforting 131 00:06:40,830 --> 00:06:39,280 to think that they can't finally came 132 00:06:43,790 --> 00:06:40,840 around to your point of view but 133 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:43,800 in the case of Darwin nope that region 134 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:46,570 often joke with my listeners about being 135 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:48,970 plagued by aircraft there's a jet flying 136 00:06:53,550 --> 00:06:51,730 overhead and I can hear it I don't know 137 00:06:54,780 --> 00:06:53,560 what that is in the background I think 138 00:06:56,220 --> 00:06:54,790 they follow me around the world Jeanne 139 00:06:58,350 --> 00:06:56,230 whenever I'm recording someone says 140 00:07:01,379 --> 00:06:58,360 right send the aircraft to it I'm sure 141 00:07:04,260 --> 00:07:01,389 that's a problem actually I think you've 142 00:07:06,420 --> 00:07:04,270 got two aircraft I went and uh but 143 00:07:08,940 --> 00:07:06,430 that's not the one we're hearing now no 144 00:07:10,590 --> 00:07:08,950 it's getting louder I think we're in 145 00:07:12,450 --> 00:07:10,600 trouble I can't even see if it's lost up 146 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:12,460 in there in the clouds must be behind 147 00:07:17,090 --> 00:07:14,110 that big cedar tree oh there it is it's 148 00:07:19,830 --> 00:07:17,100 a small aircraft oh I see it yes but 149 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:19,840 getting back now compare craft is 150 00:07:23,820 --> 00:07:22,210 disappearing this this hole this is the 151 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:23,830 interesting notion to me because you're 152 00:07:29,129 --> 00:07:26,050 saying that the creationists now are 153 00:07:30,780 --> 00:07:29,139 somewhat different to the creationist 154 00:07:32,370 --> 00:07:30,790 Darwin had to deal with I mean if I gave 155 00:07:36,659 --> 00:07:32,380 it any thought I would I would see that 156 00:07:41,430 --> 00:07:36,669 that must be the case yeah but you know 157 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:41,440 yes and no what they evolved if nothing 158 00:07:47,010 --> 00:07:43,450 else evolves creationism evolves believe 159 00:07:51,570 --> 00:07:47,020 me but just like all evolution it's on a 160 00:07:55,650 --> 00:07:51,580 pattern and the argument from design as 161 00:07:58,650 --> 00:07:55,660 an example we have here in the 20th and 162 00:08:01,680 --> 00:07:58,660 21st centuries the intelligent design 163 00:08:05,190 --> 00:08:01,690 creationists who are really just an 164 00:08:08,190 --> 00:08:05,200 intensification of ideas from their 165 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:08,200 ancestral creation science proponents 166 00:08:16,170 --> 00:08:11,410 our young earth creationists and they 167 00:08:18,659 --> 00:08:16,180 are descendants of those from the 1800s 168 00:08:21,150 --> 00:08:18,669 that that Darwin was dealing with but 169 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:21,160 the basic idea of design is an extremely 170 00:08:26,730 --> 00:08:23,770 attractive one to people it when you 171 00:08:30,629 --> 00:08:26,740 look at nature nature seems so complex 172 00:08:32,370 --> 00:08:30,639 it just seems common sense that this 173 00:08:35,219 --> 00:08:32,380 couldn't have come about by chance and 174 00:08:40,199 --> 00:08:35,229 of course no evolution has ever said 175 00:08:42,390 --> 00:08:40,209 that it came about by chance but not the 176 00:08:47,010 --> 00:08:42,400 the complexity of that redwood tree that 177 00:08:49,740 --> 00:08:47,020 we're standing next to is it's not an 178 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:49,750 either/or thing it's not a it's not that 179 00:08:53,730 --> 00:08:51,130 is just a matter of 180 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:53,740 random chance that all of those cells 181 00:09:00,710 --> 00:08:57,130 developed to process light into energy 182 00:09:03,090 --> 00:09:00,720 through photosynthesis and deposit the 183 00:09:04,230 --> 00:09:03,100 proteins that form the bark and the 184 00:09:07,140 --> 00:09:04,240 leaves and the trees and all this 185 00:09:09,780 --> 00:09:07,150 incredible complexity that makes a two 186 00:09:13,639 --> 00:09:09,790 hundred twelve foot tree that that 187 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:16,019 components bumping together and forming 188 00:09:22,069 --> 00:09:18,490 by chance or God poofed it into 189 00:09:24,870 --> 00:09:22,079 existence there is a natural process 190 00:09:26,490 --> 00:09:24,880 called natural selection that can 191 00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:26,500 produce design and usually that's 192 00:09:30,269 --> 00:09:28,000 something I talk about in this lecture 193 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:30,279 as well yeah and I guess I'm a little 194 00:09:37,230 --> 00:09:31,810 surprised because once you get the hang 195 00:09:39,420 --> 00:09:37,240 of natural selection it's not that 196 00:09:41,490 --> 00:09:39,430 complex is it I mean it's not a really 197 00:09:44,129 --> 00:09:41,500 hard thing to get your hair around how 198 00:09:49,430 --> 00:09:44,139 it works it's a basic idea no the basic 199 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:49,440 idea makes a whole lot of sense when you 200 00:09:56,509 --> 00:09:54,010 you know when I'm talking to people who 201 00:10:01,620 --> 00:09:56,519 have a little bit of science background 202 00:10:03,689 --> 00:10:01,630 I'm not afraid to use big words I like 203 00:10:06,150 --> 00:10:03,699 to describe natural selection as 204 00:10:08,819 --> 00:10:06,160 adaptive differential reproduction and 205 00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:08,829 its reproduction because what we're 206 00:10:12,030 --> 00:10:10,540 talking about is stuff through time 207 00:10:13,439 --> 00:10:12,040 things that get passed on from 208 00:10:16,850 --> 00:10:13,449 generation to generation and 209 00:10:19,740 --> 00:10:16,860 reproduction is that concept 210 00:10:21,449 --> 00:10:19,750 differential reproduction refers to the 211 00:10:23,129 --> 00:10:21,459 fact that not everything in one 212 00:10:25,530 --> 00:10:23,139 generation gets passed on to the next 213 00:10:26,699 --> 00:10:25,540 generation some organisms never 214 00:10:28,889 --> 00:10:26,709 reproduce at all 215 00:10:31,889 --> 00:10:28,899 some reproduce more than others there is 216 00:10:34,050 --> 00:10:31,899 a differential of reproduction but the 217 00:10:36,629 --> 00:10:34,060 differential reproduction is the result 218 00:10:38,850 --> 00:10:36,639 of adaptive qualities so adaptive 219 00:10:40,470 --> 00:10:38,860 differential reproduction really is the 220 00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:40,480 key to understanding natural selection 221 00:10:46,100 --> 00:10:42,880 and when we say natural selection is 222 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:46,110 adaptive we're saying that the 223 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:48,610 characteristics within a population that 224 00:10:54,740 --> 00:10:51,250 tend within that environment which is 225 00:10:57,300 --> 00:10:54,750 critical within that environment to make 226 00:11:00,210 --> 00:10:57,310 individuals survive longer reproduce 227 00:11:02,879 --> 00:11:00,220 more those are adaptive for that 228 00:11:05,579 --> 00:11:02,889 environment and are therefore passed on 229 00:11:09,449 --> 00:11:05,589 differentially so over time you know 230 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:09,459 because because reproduction occurs 231 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:12,250 because adaptation takes place everybody 232 00:11:16,410 --> 00:11:14,110 can see that creationists agree that 233 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:16,420 adaptation takes place and if you give 234 00:11:22,029 --> 00:11:17,970 it enough time 235 00:11:24,669 --> 00:11:22,039 the the logical result of that is 236 00:11:27,259 --> 00:11:24,679 adaptive differential reproduction 237 00:11:30,139 --> 00:11:27,269 evolution by natural selection again 238 00:11:33,079 --> 00:11:30,149 once you sit down and explained to you 239 00:11:35,839 --> 00:11:33,089 and you consider it it falls into place 240 00:11:37,399 --> 00:11:35,849 next it doesn't make sense and what you 241 00:11:40,939 --> 00:11:37,409 say about time is very interesting 242 00:11:42,859 --> 00:11:40,949 because I fear and I think and you 243 00:11:45,669 --> 00:11:42,869 probably would know more than me but 244 00:11:49,339 --> 00:11:45,679 since we are woefully inadequate to 245 00:11:50,779 --> 00:11:49,349 grasp timescale it's so hard you're so 246 00:11:53,089 --> 00:11:50,789 hard we can't I mean you were talking 247 00:11:55,969 --> 00:11:53,099 about the versus taking millions of 248 00:11:58,699 --> 00:11:55,979 years well we have trouble coping with 249 00:12:00,679 --> 00:11:58,709 tens of years you know hey I was right 250 00:12:05,829 --> 00:12:00,689 you know making some modifications to 251 00:12:08,809 --> 00:12:05,839 this talk yesterday and I realized that 252 00:12:14,479 --> 00:12:08,819 I'm the same age Darwin was when he died 253 00:12:16,549 --> 00:12:14,489 so time creeps up and astana and he was 254 00:12:24,469 --> 00:12:16,559 kind of old and sick and feeble and I'm 255 00:12:26,419 --> 00:12:24,479 not yet jokin what was it when Mozart 256 00:12:29,289 --> 00:12:26,429 was my age and being dead for ten years 257 00:12:32,299 --> 00:12:29,299 yeah that was Darwin I'd be dead yeah 258 00:12:34,399 --> 00:12:32,309 all right we'll all right I think you're 259 00:12:35,869 --> 00:12:34,409 getting the call we better walk into the 260 00:12:38,509 --> 00:12:35,879 library now I think they're setting up 261 00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:38,519 the room and I'm really looking forward 262 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,040 [Music] 263 00:12:52,390 --> 00:12:49,930 needless to say dr. eugenie Scott gave a 264 00:12:55,540 --> 00:12:52,400 wonderful talk lasting over an hour 265 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:55,550 what would Darwin say to today's 266 00:13:01,090 --> 00:12:57,770 creationists she covered many many 267 00:13:05,260 --> 00:13:01,100 topics from Darwin's voyage to all his 268 00:13:07,510 --> 00:13:05,270 publications was fascinating to hear 269 00:13:10,990 --> 00:13:07,520 about Darwin's alleged deathbed 270 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:11,000 confession how Darwin would be surprised 271 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:14,330 at the young Earth Creationism the new 272 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:16,250 kinds of creationism all around the 273 00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:19,310 world from different cultures and why 274 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:23,270 he's been demonized since his death if 275 00:13:28,210 --> 00:13:25,010 you have a chance to see dr. Eugenie's 276 00:13:41,470 --> 00:13:28,220 talk I sincerely recommend it Thank You 277 00:13:44,050 --> 00:13:41,480 Jeanne here's a message from our friends 278 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:44,060 at the Mordy Alex skeptics are just 279 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:46,370 south of Melbourne second of April more 280 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:48,890 tea skeptics meetup a sceptical journey 281 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:51,530 through my career in water sanitation 282 00:13:56,830 --> 00:13:54,970 and hygiene by Katherine Harris 283 00:13:59,470 --> 00:13:56,840 Katherine will talk about the 284 00:14:04,180 --> 00:13:59,480 criticality of water sanitation and 285 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:04,190 hygiene waa SH wat in third world 286 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:06,770 countries catherine has worked for over 287 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:09,170 20 years in the area of water sanitation 288 00:14:14,650 --> 00:14:11,810 and hygiene including over 12 years 289 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:14,660 working in India Somalia timor-leste 290 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:17,570 Philippines Sri Lanka and across the 291 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:19,290 Pacific 292 00:14:25,070 --> 00:14:22,170 she has predominantly worked for UNICEF 293 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:25,080 but has also worked for Red Cross Red 294 00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:27,090 our Australia and the Australian 295 00:14:32,810 --> 00:14:30,480 Government's Global wash fund she moved 296 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:32,820 to Melbourne two years ago and as a 297 00:14:38,330 --> 00:14:34,890 member of Victorian sceptics now this 298 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:38,340 will be 7:30 p.m. at the Maury Alec 299 00:14:43,550 --> 00:14:41,130 sporting club which is in Maury Alec 300 00:14:45,380 --> 00:14:43,560 Victoria for more information just 301 00:14:46,010 --> 00:14:45,390 follow the link in this week's show 302 00:15:04,109 --> 00:14:46,020 notes 303 00:15:10,269 --> 00:15:07,689 some years ago the sceptic zone reported 304 00:15:13,869 --> 00:15:10,279 on a book called Melanie's marvelous 305 00:15:17,859 --> 00:15:13,879 measles by author Stephanie Messinger 306 00:15:21,069 --> 00:15:17,869 this book was published in 2012 the book 307 00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:21,079 a children's book is about a little girl 308 00:15:29,079 --> 00:15:25,100 called Melanie who contracts measles and 309 00:15:31,299 --> 00:15:29,089 is happy as a clam and the cover of the 310 00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:31,309 book has her with her measles dancing in 311 00:15:38,109 --> 00:15:34,399 the garden with a butterfly it basically 312 00:15:40,210 --> 00:15:38,119 encourages parents to give their 313 00:15:43,449 --> 00:15:40,220 children preventable diseases 314 00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:43,459 one reviewer writes author Stephanie 315 00:15:48,099 --> 00:15:46,399 Messinger is learning the hard way the 316 00:15:50,769 --> 00:15:48,109 2012 children's book 317 00:15:53,019 --> 00:15:50,779 Melanie's marvelous measles is getting 318 00:15:56,049 --> 00:15:53,029 renewed attention thanks to a recent 319 00:15:59,109 --> 00:15:56,059 deadly outbreak of measles in Disneyland 320 00:16:01,599 --> 00:15:59,119 in December there have been more than 321 00:16:04,599 --> 00:16:01,609 100 confirmed cases of the contagious 322 00:16:09,489 --> 00:16:04,609 virus across a dozen states that comes 323 00:16:12,009 --> 00:16:09,499 from 2015 now in 2019 we have the 324 00:16:16,239 --> 00:16:12,019 unbelievable situation where according 325 00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:16,249 to USA Today and many other outlets New 326 00:16:21,849 --> 00:16:18,049 York County declares state of emergency 327 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:21,859 for measles bans unvaccinated - from 328 00:16:25,569 --> 00:16:22,850 public places 329 00:16:27,249 --> 00:16:25,579 the report says citing pockets of 330 00:16:29,109 --> 00:16:27,259 resistance that are impeding the 331 00:16:32,979 --> 00:16:29,119 county's efforts to stem a measles 332 00:16:33,939 --> 00:16:32,989 outbreak that has risen to 153 cases 333 00:16:37,299 --> 00:16:33,949 since October 334 00:16:39,039 --> 00:16:37,309 Rockland officials today declared a 335 00:16:40,929 --> 00:16:39,049 state of emergency starting at midnight 336 00:16:42,970 --> 00:16:40,939 anyone who is under 18 and not 337 00:16:45,849 --> 00:16:42,980 vaccinated against measles will be 338 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:45,859 banned from public places this ban will 339 00:16:51,239 --> 00:16:48,289 last until the declaration expires in 30 340 00:16:53,619 --> 00:16:51,249 days or until people are vaccinated 341 00:16:55,779 --> 00:16:53,629 places covered under the ban include 342 00:16:57,969 --> 00:16:55,789 shopping centers restaurants schools and 343 00:17:01,659 --> 00:16:57,979 places of worship outdoor gathering 344 00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:01,669 places are not included the report goes 345 00:17:06,250 --> 00:17:03,769 on the original measles cases in New 346 00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:06,260 York and New Jersey in October came from 347 00:17:09,460 --> 00:17:07,310 travelers visiting 348 00:17:12,070 --> 00:17:09,470 from more traveling home from Israel 349 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:12,080 which is experiencing a measles outbreak 350 00:17:17,950 --> 00:17:15,770 that has affected more than 3400 people 351 00:17:19,810 --> 00:17:17,960 and has caused at least two deaths 352 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:19,820 measles has been eliminated in the 353 00:17:24,010 --> 00:17:21,170 United States due to high vaccination 354 00:17:27,670 --> 00:17:24,020 rates but pockets of measles outbreaks 355 00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:27,680 can break out in on or under vaccinated 356 00:17:32,260 --> 00:17:29,840 areas due to travelers bringing in 357 00:17:35,530 --> 00:17:32,270 measles from outside the US officials 358 00:17:38,620 --> 00:17:35,540 said and closer to where I am at the 359 00:17:42,970 --> 00:17:38,630 moment in the San Francisco area and we 360 00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:42,980 quote briefly from the website of kpx 5 361 00:17:49,390 --> 00:17:46,880 CBS San Francisco Bay Area traveler may 362 00:17:52,690 --> 00:17:49,400 have exposed thousands to measles in 363 00:17:55,990 --> 00:17:52,700 Santa Clara County and here is a brief 364 00:17:58,180 --> 00:17:56,000 clip from the TV news that means well 365 00:18:00,580 --> 00:17:58,190 scare in the South Bay for seven days 366 00:18:02,530 --> 00:18:00,590 infected tourists exposed thousands to 367 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:02,540 the virus before he was finally 368 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:05,510 hospitalized he visited 20 popular 369 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:08,330 locations including the Apple Visitors 370 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:11,450 Center in Cupertino the Hoover tower 371 00:18:15,910 --> 00:18:13,730 observation deck at Stanford and the 372 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:15,920 valley Fair Mall where nightbeat's Maria 373 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:20,210 Medina is tonight Maria yeah and he also 374 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:22,730 visited restaurants and grocery stores 375 00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:24,890 during his stay here the good news if 376 00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:26,720 you've been vaccinated you should be ok 377 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:31,280 but many aren't it is concerning it's 378 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:32,690 concerning to everybody 379 00:18:37,150 --> 00:18:34,730 you realize Japan doze worked as a nurse 380 00:18:39,340 --> 00:18:37,160 practitioner for nearly two decades we 381 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:39,350 caught her outside the Great Mall you 382 00:18:42,790 --> 00:18:40,610 just didn't know who they were in 383 00:18:44,980 --> 00:18:42,800 contact with Santa Clara County leaders 384 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:44,990 say a man with the measles who'd flown 385 00:18:49,450 --> 00:18:47,330 in from a different country made a stop 386 00:18:51,490 --> 00:18:49,460 while in the South Bay measles is one of 387 00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:51,500 the most contagious infectious diseases 388 00:18:56,530 --> 00:18:53,960 the man kept a busy schedule during his 389 00:18:58,780 --> 00:18:56,540 stay on Saturday March 16th he went to 390 00:19:01,270 --> 00:18:58,790 this I hop in San Jose they should have 391 00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:01,280 at least on the window at least on the 392 00:19:05,860 --> 00:19:03,470 front window or a sign that says that 393 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:05,870 there was measles president it was just 394 00:19:09,820 --> 00:19:08,210 one of 20 very crowded places the man 395 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:09,830 visited within a week from the 396 00:19:12,130 --> 00:19:11,570 restaurant he went to the Apple visitor 397 00:19:14,530 --> 00:19:12,140 center 398 00:19:17,650 --> 00:19:14,540 Stanford's Hoover Tower and Valley Fair 399 00:19:20,620 --> 00:19:17,660 Mall March 18th Alfred IO in Santa Clara 400 00:19:22,330 --> 00:19:20,630 March 19th a great mall in Milpitas 401 00:19:24,580 --> 00:19:22,340 doctors say someone can catch the 402 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:24,590 measles even an hour after the infected 403 00:19:30,190 --> 00:19:28,210 person leaves the room it's up to 90% of 404 00:19:33,070 --> 00:19:30,200 susceptible people will get the measles 405 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:33,080 if they're exposed which is extremely 406 00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:33,650 high 407 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:35,030 those include people who aren't 408 00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:37,250 vaccinated including babies waiting to 409 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:39,200 get the shots and anyone with a weakened 410 00:19:43,210 --> 00:19:41,330 immune system in Santa Clara County 411 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:43,220 ninety six point seven percent of 412 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:44,690 kindergarteners last year were 413 00:19:49,390 --> 00:19:47,210 vaccinated for the measles URI DS is 414 00:19:51,970 --> 00:19:49,400 around the sick all the time she says 415 00:19:54,430 --> 00:19:51,980 she protects herself as much as she can 416 00:19:56,530 --> 00:19:54,440 I'm vaccinated and I'm hoping that 417 00:19:59,380 --> 00:19:56,540 everyone fussing as their kids in 418 00:20:04,180 --> 00:19:59,390 themselves and that's all you can hope 419 00:20:06,490 --> 00:20:04,190 for and the doctor says it is never too 420 00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:06,500 late to be vaccinated by the way health 421 00:20:11,260 --> 00:20:08,750 officials did not say where the tourists 422 00:20:13,540 --> 00:20:11,270 was from live in the Nightbeat I'm Maria 423 00:20:16,540 --> 00:20:13,550 Medina we have posted the full list of 424 00:20:18,790 --> 00:20:16,550 locations that this person visited along 425 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:18,800 with the specific dates and times they 426 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:21,530 were there at KPIX com 427 00:20:28,570 --> 00:20:26,210 and that audio courtesy of KPIX comm and 428 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:28,580 you can visit that website to find out 429 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:32,090 more and of course it's not just Israel 430 00:20:37,690 --> 00:20:35,330 in the United States that are suffering 431 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:37,700 from measles outbreaks at the moment a 432 00:20:43,810 --> 00:20:40,610 report from closer to home closer to 433 00:20:46,660 --> 00:20:43,820 Australia New Zealand from staff Cohen's 434 00:20:48,610 --> 00:20:46,670 ed we read passengers on a flight from 435 00:20:50,350 --> 00:20:48,620 Melbourne to Christchurch exposed to 436 00:20:52,570 --> 00:20:50,360 measles the story goes on to say a 437 00:20:55,930 --> 00:20:52,580 passenger who flew into Christchurch 438 00:20:58,570 --> 00:20:55,940 from Australia had the measles adding to 439 00:21:00,910 --> 00:20:58,580 the regional outbreak of more than 35 440 00:21:03,130 --> 00:21:00,920 cases the person who was infectious 441 00:21:06,370 --> 00:21:03,140 arrived in Melbourne on a Virgin 442 00:21:09,730 --> 00:21:06,380 Australia flight the a99 on March 19 443 00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:09,740 landing at 11:35 p.m. the Canterbury 444 00:21:14,620 --> 00:21:10,990 District Health Board 445 00:21:17,050 --> 00:21:14,630 CDH B has urged anyone on the flight 446 00:21:19,780 --> 00:21:17,060 unsure about their immunization status 447 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:19,790 to check with their doctor and to stay 448 00:21:24,580 --> 00:21:22,730 home and remain isolated until the 3rd 449 00:21:27,460 --> 00:21:24,590 of April if they are not fully 450 00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:27,470 vaccinated we also have reports about 451 00:21:32,650 --> 00:21:30,320 warnings about measles from the 452 00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:32,660 Australian Formula One Grand Prix yet 453 00:21:35,010 --> 00:21:33,520 another report 454 00:21:37,650 --> 00:21:35,020 from a couple of weeks ago New South 455 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:37,660 Wales health issues warnings after 456 00:21:41,910 --> 00:21:39,370 tourist brings measles from barley 457 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:41,920 visits Sydney Opera House and this comes 458 00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:45,100 from news calm day you Aziz who holiday 459 00:21:49,890 --> 00:21:46,900 in Bali and visitors to the Sydney Opera 460 00:21:52,470 --> 00:21:49,900 House are among hundreds urged to look 461 00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:52,480 out for measles symptoms after a young 462 00:21:57,570 --> 00:21:54,720 woman and baby contracted the disease 463 00:21:59,910 --> 00:21:57,580 the two new cases take the number of 464 00:22:02,460 --> 00:21:59,920 people infectious with the highly 465 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:02,470 contagious disease in the state since 466 00:22:09,150 --> 00:22:04,930 Christmas to nineteen new South Wales 467 00:22:12,510 --> 00:22:09,160 health said yesterday now just to bring 468 00:22:15,810 --> 00:22:12,520 home how important this story is the 469 00:22:21,660 --> 00:22:15,820 World Health Organization in 2011 470 00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:21,670 estimated that 158 thousand deaths were 471 00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:25,510 caused by measles as of 2018 472 00:22:30,170 --> 00:22:27,520 measles remains a leading cause of 473 00:22:32,850 --> 00:22:30,180 vaccine preventable deaths in the world 474 00:22:34,740 --> 00:22:32,860 so this is a far cry from what people 475 00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:34,750 like Stephanie Messinger would have us 476 00:22:39,630 --> 00:22:37,510 believe that measles is a wonderful gift 477 00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:39,640 from nature and your children can 478 00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:42,310 happily contract it and go dancing in 479 00:22:49,950 --> 00:22:46,510 the garden with butterflies another book 480 00:22:53,790 --> 00:22:49,960 by Stephanie Messinger is Sarah visits a 481 00:22:56,130 --> 00:22:53,800 naturopath and from her own website 482 00:22:57,990 --> 00:22:56,140 Sarah visits the naturopath a children's 483 00:23:00,150 --> 00:22:58,000 story book written by Stephanie 484 00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:00,160 Messinger this book exposes children 485 00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:03,580 aged 4 to 10 to the idea that they 486 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:05,950 create most of their ill health by the 487 00:23:11,610 --> 00:23:09,010 choices they make it encourages them to 488 00:23:12,030 --> 00:23:11,620 listen to the messages their body gives 489 00:23:14,670 --> 00:23:12,040 them 490 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:14,680 Sarah visits a naturopath to get advice 491 00:23:19,310 --> 00:23:17,770 on staying well according to nature's 492 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:19,320 laws 493 00:23:25,070 --> 00:23:21,810 well Stephanie according to nature's 494 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:25,080 laws a lot of children would simply die 495 00:23:46,490 --> 00:23:44,370 of vaccine-preventable diseases yeah I 496 00:23:48,110 --> 00:23:46,500 gotta say Bigfoot's BS but the 497 00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:48,120 chupacabra is totally the result of 498 00:23:52,220 --> 00:23:49,590 top-secret government genetic 499 00:23:54,050 --> 00:23:52,230 experiments on the remote island taking 500 00:23:55,910 --> 00:23:54,060 medical advice from mcguinnis Paltrow 501 00:23:58,100 --> 00:23:55,920 like steaming your lady parts and 502 00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:58,110 putting Jade eggs all up in there is a 503 00:24:02,660 --> 00:24:00,720 great way to improve your health police 504 00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:02,670 from around the world regularly use 505 00:24:07,580 --> 00:24:05,670 psychics to solve crimes they just don't 506 00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:07,590 talk about it spontaneous human 507 00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:10,110 combustion is for sure a real thing I've 508 00:24:15,610 --> 00:24:12,630 read all about it on the internet and I 509 00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:15,620 worry someday it's going to happen to me 510 00:24:20,060 --> 00:24:17,700 we all have friends and family who 511 00:24:22,070 --> 00:24:20,070 believe these things and much more well 512 00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:22,080 if you're a rational thinker who is 513 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:23,910 tired of arguing on social media and 514 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:25,530 never getting anywhere we have a 515 00:24:28,610 --> 00:24:26,610 solution for you 516 00:24:31,070 --> 00:24:28,620 join the guerrilla skepticism on 517 00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:31,080 wikipedia team and we will teach you how 518 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:33,510 to add reliable scientific and skeptical 519 00:24:36,770 --> 00:24:35,610 information to the world's number-one 520 00:24:39,380 --> 00:24:36,780 source of information 521 00:24:41,450 --> 00:24:39,390 Wikipedia we write new articles and 522 00:24:43,460 --> 00:24:41,460 improve existing ones we remove 523 00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:43,470 pseudoscience paranormal and altmed 524 00:24:48,170 --> 00:24:45,960 claims substituting the actual facts and 525 00:24:50,180 --> 00:24:48,180 we operate in many languages we've 526 00:24:52,670 --> 00:24:50,190 already reached tens of millions of 527 00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:52,680 people searching for information but as 528 00:24:58,130 --> 00:24:54,480 you can imagine we can never do enough 529 00:25:00,440 --> 00:24:58,140 so please join us all you need is a PC a 530 00:25:02,900 --> 00:25:00,450 Facebook account and the desire to help 531 00:25:04,550 --> 00:25:02,910 educate the planet in fact you'll be 532 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:04,560 educating the world while you sleep 533 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:09,290 contact us at t-- is w team at gmail.com 534 00:25:15,420 --> 00:25:12,690 guerrilla skepticism the time is now 535 00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:15,430 music by purple planet calm 536 00:25:52,750 --> 00:25:18,110 [Music] 537 00:25:54,909 --> 00:25:52,760 I see where it Millbrae and where it 538 00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:54,919 skeptics in the pub at an Irish pub we 539 00:25:58,900 --> 00:25:56,480 have a private room all to ourselves 540 00:26:00,490 --> 00:25:58,910 which is really good I like that we had 541 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:00,500 the music turned off which I like even 542 00:26:03,190 --> 00:26:01,130 better 543 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:03,200 and I'll just a quick introductions who 544 00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:07,010 do we have here Greg Dory and you are I 545 00:26:10,990 --> 00:26:09,200 am a former board member for Bay Area 546 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:11,000 skeptics I'm now on the advisory 547 00:26:17,049 --> 00:26:14,090 committee for Bay Area skeptics okay I'm 548 00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:17,059 Steve de saucé key and I'm just here off 549 00:26:21,940 --> 00:26:20,960 the street just for the theater half the 550 00:26:24,250 --> 00:26:21,950 people here like that 551 00:26:25,810 --> 00:26:24,260 I'm Leonard Tramel and I'm actually on 552 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:25,820 the board of the Center for enquiry 553 00:26:30,940 --> 00:26:28,970 oh I'm you know Augusta Company here so 554 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:30,950 this is the mill race skeptics in the 555 00:26:37,259 --> 00:26:32,510 pub how long has this been going 556 00:26:42,389 --> 00:26:37,269 I started coming here in 2010 I believe 557 00:26:44,729 --> 00:26:42,399 I believe that started in 2009 so close 558 00:26:47,339 --> 00:26:44,739 to ten years okay and has it always been 559 00:26:48,930 --> 00:26:47,349 here in this pub yeah in this room which 560 00:26:52,139 --> 00:26:48,940 they've remodeled a couple times since 561 00:26:53,879 --> 00:26:52,149 we started coming here but yes and 562 00:26:57,989 --> 00:26:53,889 always at this pub Fiddler's Green in 563 00:26:59,489 --> 00:26:57,999 Millbrae a genuine Irish pub run by 564 00:27:01,560 --> 00:26:59,499 genuine Irish people because the guy who 565 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:01,570 came into service will to give me my 566 00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:03,609 Guinness and quite a strong Irish accent 567 00:27:08,009 --> 00:27:05,700 he certainly did sound Irish to me and 568 00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:08,019 it's a nice little turn-up it's a cozy 569 00:27:11,729 --> 00:27:11,049 room here and for those folks listening 570 00:27:13,799 --> 00:27:11,739 around the world 571 00:27:17,459 --> 00:27:13,809 can you describe where Millbrae is 572 00:27:19,349 --> 00:27:17,469 exactly so Millbury is about 20 minutes 573 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:19,359 south of San Francisco 574 00:27:26,099 --> 00:27:21,129 depending on how you depending on how 575 00:27:28,619 --> 00:27:26,109 you get there guess it's next to the 576 00:27:31,799 --> 00:27:28,629 ampulla yeah cross highway 101 from the 577 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:31,809 airport from San Francisco Airport which 578 00:27:36,659 --> 00:27:35,369 puts us about a half hour north of 579 00:27:39,779 --> 00:27:36,669 Silicon Valley 580 00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:39,789 yes yeah I'm sure everybody's heard of 581 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:41,950 Silicon Valley and you just tell us 582 00:27:46,619 --> 00:27:43,450 before you have an interesting history 583 00:27:48,589 --> 00:27:46,629 and one which involves me in a strange 584 00:27:51,779 --> 00:27:48,599 sort of way cos my very first computer 585 00:27:54,899 --> 00:27:51,789 and I bought in high school was a 586 00:27:57,169 --> 00:27:54,909 Commodore 64 and you have a some sort of 587 00:28:00,560 --> 00:27:57,179 passing familiarity where this could 588 00:28:03,259 --> 00:28:00,570 yeah you might you might say that so my 589 00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:03,269 father founded Commodore the company 590 00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:05,070 that made the Commodore 64 and I 591 00:28:09,829 --> 00:28:07,529 actually worked on the predecessor to 592 00:28:15,979 --> 00:28:09,839 its predecessor the original Commodore 593 00:28:18,019 --> 00:28:15,989 Pat was this guy and I a linked way back 594 00:28:19,729 --> 00:28:18,029 in history yes that was my first 595 00:28:21,379 --> 00:28:19,739 computer I learned basic on other 596 00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:21,389 computers but I learned basic on the 597 00:28:29,779 --> 00:28:24,769 Commodore 64's this is Ray me younger 598 00:28:31,489 --> 00:28:29,789 audience ago huh what I continue to be 599 00:28:34,659 --> 00:28:31,499 amazed at how many people have heard of 600 00:28:37,159 --> 00:28:34,669 Commodore 64's even the young folk 601 00:28:38,810 --> 00:28:37,169 usually it's because they saw one of the 602 00:28:42,529 --> 00:28:38,820 in the attic somewhere that their 603 00:28:45,709 --> 00:28:42,539 parents use but when you sell thirty 604 00:28:47,539 --> 00:28:45,719 million of them that means there must be 605 00:28:51,379 --> 00:28:47,549 a lot of them still around and still 606 00:28:53,359 --> 00:28:51,389 functioning presumably there are I know 607 00:28:56,749 --> 00:28:53,369 that there are an awful lot of people 608 00:28:59,239 --> 00:28:56,759 that use them as hobbyist machines there 609 00:29:02,899 --> 00:28:59,249 are still people writing software for 610 00:29:07,180 --> 00:29:02,909 the Commodore 64 in selling games which 611 00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:07,190 just shocks me so I actually had lunch 612 00:29:14,389 --> 00:29:12,089 last week with a magazine editor from 613 00:29:17,469 --> 00:29:14,399 Poland who wanted to interview me 614 00:29:20,749 --> 00:29:17,479 because of my association with Commodore 615 00:29:22,789 --> 00:29:20,759 it's really really quite remarkable well 616 00:29:27,349 --> 00:29:22,799 that was a remarkable machine it played 617 00:29:29,089 --> 00:29:27,359 great games wonderful games gaming 618 00:29:31,549 --> 00:29:29,099 machine a machine for games or whatever 619 00:29:34,219 --> 00:29:31,559 it was it was fantastic well we're just 620 00:29:36,649 --> 00:29:34,229 waiting for our various dinners to 621 00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:36,659 arrive and why we have our dinner we can 622 00:29:40,669 --> 00:29:38,399 all think about what the question should 623 00:29:42,259 --> 00:29:40,679 be because whenever I go to skeptics in 624 00:29:45,529 --> 00:29:42,269 the pub I like to ask publishes a 625 00:29:46,849 --> 00:29:45,539 skeptical question will he come some 626 00:29:50,239 --> 00:29:46,859 food at the moment I'll give it some 627 00:29:51,950 --> 00:29:50,249 thought and we'll come back yeah 628 00:29:54,289 --> 00:29:51,960 cognitive dissonance 629 00:29:56,450 --> 00:29:54,299 Gregg you come up you go the man you 630 00:29:59,060 --> 00:29:56,460 came up with tonight's question and the 631 00:30:01,549 --> 00:29:59,070 nights question is should you really 632 00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:01,559 argue if somebody who is wrong on the 633 00:30:08,509 --> 00:30:04,129 internet do I mean do you do this I have 634 00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:08,519 I think there's value not necessarily 635 00:30:13,249 --> 00:30:11,820 even making the attempt of changing the 636 00:30:15,190 --> 00:30:13,259 mind of the person that you're directly 637 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:15,200 arguing with because sometimes that's 638 00:30:21,649 --> 00:30:18,809 that could be near impossible but 639 00:30:25,879 --> 00:30:21,659 there's value in presenting a solid 640 00:30:28,629 --> 00:30:25,889 argument to those who may be reading and 641 00:30:31,639 --> 00:30:28,639 watching this particular comment thread 642 00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:31,649 and maybe you're going to be educating a 643 00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:34,289 fence sitter somebody who hasn't made up 644 00:30:39,649 --> 00:30:36,809 their mind I like in a facebook site or 645 00:30:40,940 --> 00:30:39,659 something like her yeah and and I think 646 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:40,950 it's important and you know in the 647 00:30:48,649 --> 00:30:44,730 context of something like this to really 648 00:30:51,889 --> 00:30:48,659 make an effort to argue with with the 649 00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:51,899 truth and clarity and you know use all 650 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:54,960 those skeptical critical thinking tools 651 00:30:59,779 --> 00:30:57,210 that you've got in your toolkit so that 652 00:31:02,619 --> 00:30:59,789 you're not you're not feeding them with 653 00:31:04,909 --> 00:31:02,629 ammunition because you're making errors 654 00:31:06,950 --> 00:31:04,919 and you're also presenting your argument 655 00:31:11,419 --> 00:31:06,960 well way do you draw the line what do 656 00:31:14,749 --> 00:31:11,429 you say okay that's enough probably when 657 00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:14,759 you realize that the other person is a 658 00:31:19,369 --> 00:31:16,950 troll is essentially just trying to 659 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:19,379 counter everything you're saying with 660 00:31:25,279 --> 00:31:21,330 some other argument whether or not that 661 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:25,289 argument is as sensible or nonsense I've 662 00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:27,330 been in some conversations like that and 663 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:30,240 at one point just realize this is going 664 00:31:35,390 --> 00:31:31,290 nowhere 665 00:31:37,820 --> 00:31:35,400 they're simply trying to you know to 666 00:31:40,370 --> 00:31:37,830 one-up me in our response no matter 667 00:31:44,450 --> 00:31:40,380 whether or not their response is 668 00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:44,460 accurate and at that point I just give 669 00:31:50,570 --> 00:31:48,480 up but hopefully along the way I've made 670 00:32:00,820 --> 00:31:50,580 some solid comments that will help other 671 00:32:08,690 --> 00:32:07,100 alright here's the next second do you 672 00:32:10,550 --> 00:32:08,700 think you should tell people when 673 00:32:12,050 --> 00:32:10,560 they're wrong on the Internet absolutely 674 00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:12,060 good answer 675 00:32:19,460 --> 00:32:16,440 short and sweet you haven't indulge 676 00:32:23,090 --> 00:32:19,470 yourself in this idea not in the last 677 00:32:25,220 --> 00:32:23,100 five minutes but that's only because 678 00:32:28,490 --> 00:32:25,230 I've been listening to you interview 679 00:32:30,770 --> 00:32:28,500 Greg I see so soon as you go home it's 680 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:30,780 you're gonna get into it again well if 681 00:32:35,650 --> 00:32:32,010 there's a lone lull in the conversation 682 00:32:37,730 --> 00:32:35,660 here I may pull out my phone and do it 683 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:37,740 so do you think you should tell people 684 00:32:41,930 --> 00:32:39,090 if they're wrong on the internet or do 685 00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:41,940 you engage in this mostly yes but 686 00:32:48,380 --> 00:32:44,880 usually it depends is the easy answer 687 00:32:49,850 --> 00:32:48,390 but generally speaking I prefer to ask 688 00:32:51,770 --> 00:32:49,860 people questions when they're wrong on 689 00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:51,780 the Internet okay so if someone's 690 00:32:55,580 --> 00:32:54,000 Socratic method the Socratic or Street 691 00:32:58,730 --> 00:32:55,590 epistemology plug plug Street 692 00:33:00,080 --> 00:32:58,740 epistemology okay so if somebody it 693 00:33:01,610 --> 00:33:00,090 depends on the situation of course but 694 00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:01,620 if somebody's really wrong and you have 695 00:33:06,380 --> 00:33:03,510 no chant you can just say they're wrong 696 00:33:07,970 --> 00:33:06,390 and get out quick time but if you really 697 00:33:10,340 --> 00:33:07,980 want if there's people listening and you 698 00:33:12,020 --> 00:33:10,350 really want to bring out the flaws and 699 00:33:14,810 --> 00:33:12,030 they're thinking and why they think with 700 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:14,820 it maybe as opposed to the actual 701 00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:17,250 effects because the whole backfire 702 00:33:22,250 --> 00:33:20,190 effect and all that I think asking them 703 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:22,260 questions about why they believe this 704 00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:25,290 wrong thing might be more productive yes 705 00:33:29,060 --> 00:33:27,510 good good reply good reply I'll come 706 00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:29,070 down to this end of the table deep in 707 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:30,840 conversation now do you believe in 708 00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:32,490 arguing with people if they're wrong on 709 00:33:36,049 --> 00:33:33,150 the Internet 710 00:33:39,690 --> 00:33:36,059 don't get your hopes up but yes 711 00:33:42,539 --> 00:33:39,700 you've had success in this I'm not gonna 712 00:33:44,460 --> 00:33:42,549 say I've had success but if you can get 713 00:33:46,380 --> 00:33:44,470 someone to think you can never make I 714 00:33:49,259 --> 00:33:46,390 don't think I think hoping that you're 715 00:33:52,710 --> 00:33:49,269 going to make a turnaround on your 716 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:52,720 efforts alone is is not folly but you're 717 00:33:57,210 --> 00:33:54,610 getting your hopes too high but you can 718 00:33:59,100 --> 00:33:57,220 plant the seed of doubt and somebody 719 00:34:00,779 --> 00:33:59,110 else later on and so it's it's an 720 00:34:03,870 --> 00:34:00,789 incremental thing that you have to work 721 00:34:06,750 --> 00:34:03,880 with people and try and get it my 722 00:34:08,220 --> 00:34:06,760 arguing alone I would like any 723 00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:08,230 politician agreed with me a hundred 724 00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:11,649 percent there's a problem right and and 725 00:34:17,339 --> 00:34:12,879 the same thing we're trying to convince 726 00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:17,349 somebody that they're wrong is my word 727 00:34:21,389 --> 00:34:19,990 alone should not be enough for that it 728 00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:21,399 should be a cumulative thing they should 729 00:34:25,349 --> 00:34:23,919 be respecting and hearing from a lot of 730 00:34:27,810 --> 00:34:25,359 different sources to make that count 731 00:34:30,510 --> 00:34:27,820 it's a very interesting answer I'll come 732 00:34:33,329 --> 00:34:30,520 around to you um I will sometimes look 733 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:33,339 up things on Snopes as corrections to 734 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:35,970 something they roasted but if it's my 735 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:39,490 relatives who are proudly uneducated and 736 00:34:43,230 --> 00:34:40,810 I've known this about them my whole life 737 00:34:45,839 --> 00:34:43,240 in a certain part of the country they 738 00:34:48,180 --> 00:34:45,849 will just respond with oh well what do 739 00:34:49,770 --> 00:34:48,190 you know or one particular one will just 740 00:34:51,180 --> 00:34:49,780 say oh well I just posted that because I 741 00:34:54,419 --> 00:34:51,190 knew you would think it was interesting 742 00:34:55,050 --> 00:34:54,429 and they totally discount anything that 743 00:34:57,630 --> 00:34:55,060 I've given them 744 00:35:00,780 --> 00:34:57,640 I don't you it depends on the individual 745 00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:00,790 and I would say most of the time I just 746 00:35:07,250 --> 00:35:04,089 try too much get out of the conversation 747 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:07,260 it's just because I don't find a lot of 748 00:35:12,210 --> 00:35:10,210 value to it I understand his point of 749 00:35:14,130 --> 00:35:12,220 view that it's incremental people only 750 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:14,140 change incrementally you're not gonna 751 00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:17,250 totally change somebody from no to yes 752 00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:20,470 so he is right he's just more patient 753 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:25,089 than I am I used to teach and I did not 754 00:35:30,570 --> 00:35:28,810 enjoy teaching okay because there's that 755 00:35:33,859 --> 00:35:30,580 thing when when somebody will say 756 00:35:35,660 --> 00:35:33,869 something outrageous and in it's like a 757 00:35:37,759 --> 00:35:35,670 mistake 758 00:35:39,559 --> 00:35:37,769 what do we call it an earworm say 759 00:35:41,359 --> 00:35:39,569 something yes borrowing into your head 760 00:35:43,370 --> 00:35:41,369 say you know I have to tell them they're 761 00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:43,380 wrong look you're wrong you know yes 762 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:45,569 yeah that's exactly right I there's the 763 00:35:51,019 --> 00:35:48,690 urge to do it yeah like I said looking 764 00:35:54,019 --> 00:35:51,029 it up on the site that seems that is 765 00:35:56,989 --> 00:35:54,029 reputable via Noland and sending them 766 00:35:58,700 --> 00:35:56,999 that information but I know the people 767 00:36:01,009 --> 00:35:58,710 I'm dealing with are probably going to 768 00:36:03,890 --> 00:36:01,019 read it they're the same ones you can 769 00:36:06,319 --> 00:36:03,900 used to call contact me Oh as cousin 770 00:36:08,299 --> 00:36:06,329 sandy she has the information you need 771 00:36:10,370 --> 00:36:08,309 on the family research because she likes 772 00:36:12,410 --> 00:36:10,380 to read she's been like that since she 773 00:36:14,479 --> 00:36:12,420 was a kid so that's sort of the thing 774 00:36:17,739 --> 00:36:14,489 you know they've always been this way 775 00:36:20,029 --> 00:36:17,749 these particular people that I think 776 00:36:23,210 --> 00:36:20,039 well yeah I think you've gotten more 777 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:23,220 restraint than I do you know you know 778 00:36:26,779 --> 00:36:25,170 when it's family what are you gonna do 779 00:36:28,819 --> 00:36:26,789 what are you going to do very good point 780 00:36:29,989 --> 00:36:28,829 thank you very much now we just come 781 00:36:31,549 --> 00:36:29,999 back here because you saying you have a 782 00:36:33,979 --> 00:36:31,559 lose it a weekly newsletter 783 00:36:35,420 --> 00:36:33,989 and so it's called the science moves and 784 00:36:37,849 --> 00:36:35,430 we list public informal science 785 00:36:40,220 --> 00:36:37,859 presentations all over the Bay Area and 786 00:36:42,289 --> 00:36:40,230 and then we do an editorial with it that 787 00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:42,299 goes out each week as well and the Bay 788 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:44,730 Area is such a wealth of information for 789 00:36:49,069 --> 00:36:47,130 it it's mind bottling and so right now 790 00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:49,079 we're listening about a hundred about a 791 00:36:51,470 --> 00:36:50,640 hundred events for every two week period 792 00:36:54,979 --> 00:36:51,480 okay 793 00:36:57,559 --> 00:36:54,989 and so but when I do an editorial and go 794 00:37:01,849 --> 00:36:57,569 after the anti-vaccination crowd every 795 00:37:03,229 --> 00:37:01,859 time I get one flaming email Wow and 796 00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:03,239 it's interesting because it's only one 797 00:37:08,539 --> 00:37:04,680 it's never the same person it's always 798 00:37:11,450 --> 00:37:08,549 slightly different but it is a hot 799 00:37:12,979 --> 00:37:11,460 button in so many ways for us yeah and 800 00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:12,989 stuff and so the other guys are right 801 00:37:15,839 --> 00:37:14,609 who won who I think you know David 802 00:37:18,510 --> 00:37:15,849 almond Smith 803 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:18,520 he writes for it as well and so he can 804 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:20,050 do it and he never gets anything but I 805 00:37:27,210 --> 00:37:24,010 write it's just like you know of you're 806 00:37:28,530 --> 00:37:27,220 a pawn of fart Big Pharma ride and and 807 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:28,540 you have no right to call yourself a 808 00:37:33,359 --> 00:37:30,970 scientist which I am NOT a scientist and 809 00:37:35,010 --> 00:37:33,369 I point that out but um but it's 810 00:37:39,450 --> 00:37:35,020 interesting that anti the anti 811 00:37:43,049 --> 00:37:39,460 vaccination issues race so much you know 812 00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:43,059 on emotion they do it really is a 813 00:37:46,859 --> 00:37:44,800 mind-boggling thing I've had because I 814 00:37:50,130 --> 00:37:46,869 had some people there's a homeschooling 815 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:50,140 group down near Santa Cruz and two of 816 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:52,450 the mothers there are being confronted 817 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:53,890 by everybody else in the homeschooling 818 00:37:59,430 --> 00:37:56,770 group who are anti-vaxxers and these two 819 00:38:01,770 --> 00:37:59,440 women are saying we need help how do we 820 00:38:03,630 --> 00:38:01,780 make these arguments and so forth I've 821 00:38:05,250 --> 00:38:03,640 engaged with Cheney Scott on getting her 822 00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:05,260 some input and stuff on it as well so 823 00:38:10,829 --> 00:38:08,079 but yeah an interesting an interesting 824 00:38:12,420 --> 00:38:10,839 story okay thank you very much okay now 825 00:38:16,109 --> 00:38:12,430 how can people find out more about 826 00:38:19,349 --> 00:38:16,119 Millbrae skeptics in the pub you can 827 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:19,359 find the Bay Area skeptics Facebook 828 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:22,930 group on Facebook yeah go to be a 829 00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:25,690 skeptics org where we have an events 830 00:38:32,130 --> 00:38:29,280 list on the page this particular 831 00:38:34,339 --> 00:38:32,140 skeptics in the pub meetup is the fourth 832 00:38:37,109 --> 00:38:34,349 Wednesday that every month at this 833 00:38:40,530 --> 00:38:37,119 location Fiddler's Green in Millbrae and 834 00:38:42,450 --> 00:38:40,540 the second Thursday of every month in 835 00:38:43,710 --> 00:38:42,460 Berkeley at--look de la pena cultural 836 00:38:45,630 --> 00:38:43,720 center 837 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:45,640 there is a skeptic which is a 838 00:38:52,620 --> 00:38:49,210 presentation by some notable skeptic or 839 00:38:54,540 --> 00:38:52,630 scientist about a topic related to 840 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:54,550 skepticism or science you should know 841 00:39:00,210 --> 00:38:55,930 this because you were at the last one 842 00:39:04,380 --> 00:39:00,220 you spoke that happens every month and 843 00:39:07,859 --> 00:39:04,390 then in the summer it'll be in June this 844 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:07,869 year use skeptic al yeah and you can 845 00:39:13,859 --> 00:39:12,490 find that at skeptic al con-com I find 846 00:39:17,970 --> 00:39:13,869 out all the information in buy tickets 847 00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:17,980 that's a one day long skeptic conference 848 00:39:23,940 --> 00:39:21,510 that runs about ten hours or so with 849 00:39:26,849 --> 00:39:23,950 five six seven 850 00:39:29,069 --> 00:39:26,859 very interesting speakers yep yeah I was 851 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:29,079 there last year had a wonderful time and 852 00:39:32,670 --> 00:39:31,210 folks I can recommend Millbrae skeptics 853 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:32,680 in the pub we got a private room the 854 00:39:37,050 --> 00:39:35,050 food was great my goodness me I thought 855 00:39:39,089 --> 00:39:37,060 I ordered somewhat a small amount of 856 00:39:47,940 --> 00:39:39,099 spicy chicken wings I could barely get 857 00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:47,950 through the size shoes yes look at the 858 00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:50,950 size shoes on Google that's herb masters 859 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:54,910 the Bay Area Science org herb masters is 860 00:39:58,380 --> 00:39:56,290 heavily involved with that herb is one 861 00:40:00,559 --> 00:39:58,390 of the other Board of Directors members 862 00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:00,569 for Bay Area skeptics and that's a great 863 00:40:05,970 --> 00:40:03,310 resource for what's currently going on 864 00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:05,980 in science okay folks again links will 865 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:07,270 be in this week's show notes 866 00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:08,890 well we'll wrap it up from Millbrae 867 00:40:25,279 --> 00:40:22,240 [Music] 868 00:40:27,020 --> 00:40:25,289 hello listeners a maximum fun I want to 869 00:40:28,970 --> 00:40:27,030 tell you about our newest podcast that 870 00:40:30,529 --> 00:40:28,980 tells you all about the truth of the 871 00:40:31,789 --> 00:40:30,539 Flat Earth have you been looking out 872 00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:31,799 over the horizon and you've been 873 00:40:35,029 --> 00:40:32,730 thinking wait a minute 874 00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:35,039 this doesn't look round I've been lied 875 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:37,680 to my whole life what is NASA doing with 876 00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:42,690 52 million dollars a day oh come on we 877 00:40:47,839 --> 00:40:45,839 explode the myths just kidding 878 00:40:49,970 --> 00:40:47,849 we're a ho no Ross and Carrie and we 879 00:40:52,130 --> 00:40:49,980 investigate extraordinary claims that's 880 00:40:54,529 --> 00:40:52,140 right we investigate extraordinary 881 00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:54,539 claims firsthand we go undercover in 882 00:40:58,730 --> 00:40:56,250 fringe groups we get alternative 883 00:41:00,680 --> 00:40:58,740 medicine treatments and we hang out with 884 00:41:03,170 --> 00:41:00,690 people who have unusual beliefs like 885 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:03,180 flat earthers 9/11 truthers we do ghost 886 00:41:07,250 --> 00:41:05,490 investigations we've joined Scientology 887 00:41:10,130 --> 00:41:07,260 and we got baptized in the Mormon Church 888 00:41:13,549 --> 00:41:10,140 if it goes bump in the night then so do 889 00:41:18,260 --> 00:41:13,559 we hmm why don't you check out oh no 890 00:41:35,339 --> 00:41:33,180 [Music] 891 00:41:38,849 --> 00:41:35,349 now we continue our current series of 892 00:41:41,039 --> 00:41:38,859 reports items articles items of interest 893 00:41:43,950 --> 00:41:41,049 from the skeptic magazine the journal 894 00:41:54,420 --> 00:41:43,960 from Australian skeptics and we turn to 895 00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:54,430 vol 7 number 3 spring 1987 a story 896 00:41:59,640 --> 00:41:55,920 that's close to my heart 897 00:42:03,779 --> 00:41:59,650 psychics and the police separating fact 898 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:03,789 from fiction now I don't see a byline so 899 00:42:09,450 --> 00:42:06,490 I suspect this was written by Barry 900 00:42:14,799 --> 00:42:09,460 Williams the then editor of the skeptic 901 00:42:20,279 --> 00:42:17,769 many self professed psychics claim to 902 00:42:23,380 --> 00:42:20,289 have assisted the police by providing 903 00:42:26,799 --> 00:42:23,390 insights into the whereabouts of missing 904 00:42:29,259 --> 00:42:26,809 persons finding evidence etc the 905 00:42:31,059 --> 00:42:29,269 newspaper headline quote psychic helps 906 00:42:33,909 --> 00:42:31,069 in the hunt for woman end quote 907 00:42:36,669 --> 00:42:33,919 his commonplace but rarely do we hear of 908 00:42:39,759 --> 00:42:36,679 any follow-up on how useful the psychics 909 00:42:42,339 --> 00:42:39,769 advice has been to police the newspaper 910 00:42:44,709 --> 00:42:42,349 heading above in fact appeared in a 911 00:42:46,989 --> 00:42:44,719 Sydney newspaper recently concerning the 912 00:42:49,359 --> 00:42:46,999 disappearance of a girl who had failed 913 00:42:52,659 --> 00:42:49,369 to turn up for an appointment with her 914 00:42:55,479 --> 00:42:52,669 quote psychic healer when quote the 915 00:42:58,209 --> 00:42:55,489 healer naturally upset at her nan 916 00:43:01,179 --> 00:42:58,219 appearance volunteered his help to the 917 00:43:03,069 --> 00:43:01,189 police the paper said he had contacted 918 00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:03,079 other psychic mediums throughout 919 00:43:08,649 --> 00:43:05,689 Australia in a bid to find her the paper 920 00:43:12,279 --> 00:43:08,659 did not say how the healer contacted the 921 00:43:15,669 --> 00:43:12,289 other mediums media surely nothing as 922 00:43:17,829 --> 00:43:15,679 mundane as a telephone as it turned out 923 00:43:21,459 --> 00:43:17,839 the young lady in question turned up 924 00:43:24,849 --> 00:43:21,469 safe and sound having had a mechanical 925 00:43:27,729 --> 00:43:24,859 breakdown on a trip to the snow but the 926 00:43:30,699 --> 00:43:27,739 memory left in most readers minds is 927 00:43:31,689 --> 00:43:30,709 that a psychic helped police with their 928 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:31,699 investigations 929 00:43:38,979 --> 00:43:35,650 so psychics must be valid investigators 930 00:43:42,549 --> 00:43:38,989 many skeptical investigations of quote 931 00:43:44,829 --> 00:43:42,559 psychic detectives in quote have shown 932 00:43:47,289 --> 00:43:44,839 their claims to be unfounded famous 933 00:43:49,419 --> 00:43:47,299 names such as Gerard the Cosette and 934 00:43:52,620 --> 00:43:49,429 Doris Stokes spring to mind 935 00:43:56,140 --> 00:43:52,630 and now the colossal misses a date bar 936 00:43:57,969 --> 00:43:56,150 has thrown her hat into the ring by 937 00:44:00,309 --> 00:43:57,979 claiming to have assisted Dutch 938 00:44:02,859 --> 00:44:00,319 authorities although her claims have not 939 00:44:05,469 --> 00:44:02,869 been substantiated one way or the other 940 00:44:09,399 --> 00:44:05,479 due to lack of detailed information for 941 00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:09,409 a follow-up in fact police may use 942 00:44:14,529 --> 00:44:12,529 psychics advice on occasion much as they 943 00:44:16,769 --> 00:44:14,539 would use anyone's information 944 00:44:19,899 --> 00:44:16,779 especially if there are no strong leads 945 00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:19,909 but the police use of psychics is not 946 00:44:26,409 --> 00:44:23,390 always as enthusiastic as the psychics 947 00:44:27,710 --> 00:44:26,419 or the newspapers would lead one to 948 00:44:29,839 --> 00:44:27,720 believe 949 00:44:32,180 --> 00:44:29,849 the heading clairvoyance in search for 950 00:44:32,930 --> 00:44:32,190 missing boy which appeared in The Sunday 951 00:44:37,309 --> 00:44:32,940 Telegraph 952 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:37,319 on June 30 1986 elicit the response from 953 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:39,930 the police that their investigations are 954 00:44:44,839 --> 00:44:42,930 being hampered by people claiming to be 955 00:44:47,540 --> 00:44:44,849 clairvoyance and psychics the chief 956 00:44:49,849 --> 00:44:47,550 superintendent sat at the time we give 957 00:44:52,819 --> 00:44:49,859 no credibility at all 958 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:52,829 to these people and we don't use them in 959 00:44:55,970 --> 00:44:54,210 our investigations 960 00:44:58,579 --> 00:44:55,980 more recently the South Australian 961 00:45:00,020 --> 00:44:58,589 skeptics has been in contact with the 962 00:45:03,050 --> 00:45:00,030 Commissioner of Police in South 963 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:03,060 Australia instigated by another state's 964 00:45:09,829 --> 00:45:07,050 police use of psychic advice to find or 965 00:45:12,650 --> 00:45:09,839 not to find as it turned out a missing 966 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:12,660 persons car South Australia state 967 00:45:18,740 --> 00:45:16,530 secretary and from this it means the 968 00:45:21,230 --> 00:45:18,750 state secretary of the Australian 969 00:45:23,359 --> 00:45:21,240 skeptics in South Australia Ron Evans 970 00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:23,369 wrote to the South Australian 971 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:25,440 Commissioner most senior policemen would 972 00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:27,450 no doubt ignore messages from the tea 973 00:45:34,250 --> 00:45:30,480 cup however it concerns us that left 974 00:45:37,339 --> 00:45:34,260 unguided an officer perhaps lacking in 975 00:45:39,140 --> 00:45:37,349 experience or confidence might feel the 976 00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:39,150 need to pursue even the most 977 00:45:44,540 --> 00:45:41,910 preposterous lead for fear of criticism 978 00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:44,550 if he did not there are quite frequent 979 00:45:50,270 --> 00:45:47,040 reports in the popular press of some 980 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:50,280 psychic or other having assisted police 981 00:45:54,589 --> 00:45:52,170 in an investigation 982 00:45:57,319 --> 00:45:54,599 the reports seldom mentioned which 983 00:46:00,589 --> 00:45:57,329 police force or which crime or what 984 00:46:02,450 --> 00:46:00,599 exactly the psychic achieved we have 985 00:46:06,050 --> 00:46:02,460 tried to follow up with some of these 986 00:46:08,990 --> 00:46:06,060 vague reports but we have yet to find 987 00:46:11,809 --> 00:46:09,000 even one instance where a psychic has 988 00:46:14,359 --> 00:46:11,819 actually helped the police even so the 989 00:46:17,859 --> 00:46:14,369 illusion persists with the public that 990 00:46:21,079 --> 00:46:17,869 from time to time the police are in fact 991 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:21,089 assisted by psychics we are concerned 992 00:46:24,410 --> 00:46:23,490 that even some police may have this 993 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:24,420 illusion 994 00:46:29,630 --> 00:46:26,970 mr. Evans went on to ask a number of 995 00:46:32,329 --> 00:46:29,640 questions of the Commissioner is there 996 00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:32,339 any police policy on the use of psychics 997 00:46:38,930 --> 00:46:36,720 and clairvoyance if so what is it what 998 00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:38,940 contact has the South Australian police 999 00:46:43,790 --> 00:46:40,560 had with psychics 1000 00:46:46,450 --> 00:46:43,800 and importantly is there any documented 1001 00:46:49,460 --> 00:46:46,460 instance where a psychic has materially 1002 00:46:53,150 --> 00:46:49,470 assisted the police in response from 1003 00:46:56,180 --> 00:46:53,160 assistant commissioner crime KPE Harvey 1004 00:46:59,420 --> 00:46:56,190 the South Australian skeptics learned 1005 00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,430 that there was no specific policy on the 1006 00:47:04,780 --> 00:47:02,160 use of psychics all evidence received is 1007 00:47:07,220 --> 00:47:04,790 assessed evaluated and acted upon 1008 00:47:11,020 --> 00:47:07,230 according to the circumstances of the 1009 00:47:13,940 --> 00:47:11,030 case however numerous individuals 1010 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:13,950 describing themselves as psychics have 1011 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:16,170 contacted investigators during major 1012 00:47:20,900 --> 00:47:17,610 criminal inquiries 1013 00:47:22,910 --> 00:47:20,910 none of these contacts have resulted in 1014 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:22,920 bringing a case to a successful 1015 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:25,650 conclusion so far as we can trace 1016 00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:27,810 through documentation the Australian 1017 00:47:32,890 --> 00:47:30,000 skeptics are keen to learn of any 1018 00:47:36,140 --> 00:47:32,900 investigation which has involved quote 1019 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:36,150 assistance in quote from psychics 1020 00:47:43,460 --> 00:47:39,690 especially any in which a psychic played 1021 00:47:45,950 --> 00:47:43,470 an important and useful role separating 1022 00:47:48,020 --> 00:47:45,960 claims from fact is an important role 1023 00:47:50,930 --> 00:47:48,030 for skeptics and any assistance our 1024 00:47:53,050 --> 00:47:50,940 readers could give in this matter would 1025 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:53,060 be most useful 1026 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:54,330 [Music] 1027 00:48:00,960 --> 00:47:56,650 and that comes from the skeptic magazine 1028 00:48:04,230 --> 00:48:00,970 volume 7 number 3 from spring 1987 and 1029 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:04,240 again and I believe that piece was 1030 00:48:08,550 --> 00:48:06,490 written by the then editor and president 1031 00:48:09,450 --> 00:48:08,560 of the skeptics Barry Williams the late 1032 00:48:12,660 --> 00:48:09,460 Barry Williams 1033 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:12,670 [Music] 1034 00:48:19,870 --> 00:48:15,170 and I find this report particularly 1035 00:48:23,130 --> 00:48:19,880 interesting because I do talk myself 1036 00:48:27,550 --> 00:48:23,140 about so-called psychic detectives 1037 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:27,560 including Jerrod Cosette who is you may 1038 00:48:32,710 --> 00:48:29,930 recall the psychic who was the psychic 1039 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:32,720 involved in looking for the missing 1040 00:48:38,620 --> 00:48:36,290 Beaumont children way back in the 1960s 1041 00:48:42,220 --> 00:48:38,630 and just a reminder when I use the word 1042 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:42,230 psychic it's a shortcut it's simply 1043 00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:45,050 quicker than saying alleged psychic or 1044 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:47,570 so-called psychic or self-described 1045 00:48:52,330 --> 00:48:49,970 psychic or something like that 1046 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:52,340 [Music] 1047 00:48:57,970 --> 00:48:54,370 and once again you can read that and 1048 00:49:01,810 --> 00:48:57,980 thousands thousands of reports articles 1049 00:49:05,020 --> 00:49:01,820 interviews items reviews book reviews 1050 00:49:07,330 --> 00:49:05,030 and on it goes in the pages of the 1051 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:07,340 skeptic magazine for free at your 1052 00:49:18,190 --> 00:49:13,970 disposal by visiting WWF Dexcom a you 1053 00:49:21,370 --> 00:49:18,200 [Music] 1054 00:49:32,010 --> 00:49:21,380 [Laughter] 1055 00:49:37,540 --> 00:49:34,960 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1056 00:49:39,460 --> 00:49:37,550 zone now if you're going to be in Sydney 1057 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:39,470 Australia on Thursday the 4th of April 1058 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:42,290 it's Sydney skeptics in the pub at the 1059 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:45,290 Occidental hotel which is just near 1060 00:49:52,930 --> 00:49:50,690 Wynyard station in downtown Sydney the 1061 00:49:56,140 --> 00:49:52,940 upcoming talk is by Carey Doherty and 1062 00:49:59,200 --> 00:49:56,150 it's about Australia's role in the 1063 00:50:02,109 --> 00:49:59,210 Apollo lunar program and the blurb says 1064 00:50:05,410 --> 00:50:02,119 the dish is a delightful Ozzie film 1065 00:50:08,950 --> 00:50:05,420 about Australia's role in the Apollo 11 1066 00:50:11,859 --> 00:50:08,960 lunar landing however while it is based 1067 00:50:14,950 --> 00:50:11,869 on a true story we have to remember that 1068 00:50:16,810 --> 00:50:14,960 it is only a movie his focus on the 1069 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:16,820 crucial role played by the Parkes radio 1070 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:18,770 telescope in bringing the live 1071 00:50:23,620 --> 00:50:21,050 television broadcast of the Apollo 11 1072 00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:23,630 lunar landings to the world leaves 1073 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:27,200 untold the much larger role in the 1074 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:29,810 Apollo program played by space trekking 1075 00:50:35,260 --> 00:50:32,570 facilities in Australia join space 1076 00:50:37,900 --> 00:50:35,270 historian Carey Doherty as she delves 1077 00:50:40,900 --> 00:50:37,910 and like that word delves into the 1078 00:50:43,359 --> 00:50:40,910 larger story behind the dish to find the 1079 00:50:45,970 --> 00:50:43,369 answers now that does sound like a great 1080 00:50:48,310 --> 00:50:45,980 night again that skeptics in the pub in 1081 00:50:51,099 --> 00:50:48,320 Sydney and that will be on the 4th of 1082 00:50:53,770 --> 00:50:51,109 April Thursday the 4th of April kicking 1083 00:50:57,030 --> 00:50:53,780 off around 6 p.m. and for more 1084 00:51:00,340 --> 00:50:57,040 information or to register your 1085 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:00,350 attending just visit the links in this 1086 00:51:06,970 --> 00:51:02,930 week's show notes or look up sydney 1087 00:51:09,670 --> 00:51:06,980 skeptics in meetup now big thank you to 1088 00:51:11,590 --> 00:51:09,680 those people who kindly contribute to 1089 00:51:15,370 --> 00:51:11,600 the sceptic zone via patreon or PayPal 1090 00:51:18,460 --> 00:51:15,380 at skeptic zone TV your contribution 1091 00:51:21,250 --> 00:51:18,470 weekly monthly yearly not healy weekly 1092 00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:21,260 monthly or even one-off means the 1093 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:24,730 skeptic zone can keep in production 1094 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:27,770 coming up on next week's show I hope to 1095 00:51:32,950 --> 00:51:29,570 bring you an interview with another 1096 00:51:41,820 --> 00:51:32,960 staff member of the fabulous Center for 1097 00:51:49,740 --> 00:51:45,180 and oddly enough next week's program 1098 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:49,750 will come out when I'm lost in the time 1099 00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:53,650 zones between today and the day after 1100 00:52:00,650 --> 00:51:57,130 tomorrow I'll be flying and I miss a day 1101 00:52:04,020 --> 00:52:00,660 I think I miss yes I in fact I will miss 1102 00:52:06,570 --> 00:52:04,030 Sunday the day in Australia the skeptic 1103 00:52:08,730 --> 00:52:06,580 zone normally comes out I won't have a 1104 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:08,740 Sunday next week because of time zones 1105 00:52:17,290 --> 00:52:11,410 and flying I think I'm better start 1106 00:52:23,350 --> 00:52:21,220 but for this week I think this is 1107 00:52:32,350 --> 00:52:23,360 Richard Saunders signing off from the 1108 00:52:34,420 --> 00:52:32,360 San Francisco Bay Area you've been 1109 00:52:41,350 --> 00:52:34,430 listening to the skeptic zone podcast 1110 00:52:43,810 --> 00:52:41,360 please visit our website at wwlp.com tax 1111 00:52:47,860 --> 00:52:43,820 and to access the bat catalog of 1112 00:52:49,570 --> 00:52:47,870 episodes going back to 2008 you can 1113 00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:49,580 follow the skeptic zone podcast on 1114 00:52:54,910 --> 00:52:52,640 twitter at skeptic zone visit our 1115 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:54,920 facebook page or leave a review on 1116 00:52:58,480 --> 00:52:55,810 itunes 1117 00:53:01,870 --> 00:52:58,490 you can also support the skeptic zone 1118 00:53:05,260 --> 00:53:01,880 via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone 1119 00:53:06,970 --> 00:53:05,270 podcast is an independent production the 1120 00:53:09,100 --> 00:53:06,980 views and opinions expressed on the 1121 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:09,110 skeptic zone are not necessarily those 1122 00:53:13,230 --> 00:53:11,450 of Australian skeptics or any other